Surviving the Unsurvivable: Optimistic Realism with Jonathon Gluck

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Hello listeners, and welcome back to The Science of Self, where you

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Improve your Life from the Inside Out.

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Today's guest is Jonathan Gluck,

author of The New Book Coming

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Out and Exercise In Uncertainty.

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John, take a minute, introduce

yourself to our listeners, and then

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we'll explore the book and some other

things that we'll have to talk about.

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Jon Gluck: Thanks so much for having me.

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Yeah.

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Uh, my name is Jonathan Gluck.

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Uh, I was a long time magazine

editor, uh, worked at magazines

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like New York Magazine and Vogue.

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And, uh, I've also been a cancer

patient for the last 20 plus years,

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uh, and I've written a memoir about

my experience, uh, as you noted,

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called an exercise in uncertainty.

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And, uh, that's what we're

here to talk about today.

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Russell: when I think of Vogue, the

first thing that comes to mind is, uh,

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uh, the movie The Devil Wears Prada,

and what it presents there as far as the

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backside of, uh, magazine productions.

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Like, tell us something about,

How might that relate to, um, a

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regular, I don't know what a regular

business would be, but maybe a, um,

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how would you describe that work?

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Jon Gluck: Yeah, it was,

uh, exciting and fun.

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Uh, you know, I really enjoyed, um,

you know, uh, working on stories that

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either informed people or educated

or, uh, entertained or inspired them.

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Um, uh.

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That was always something I've

enjoyed doing even from a young age.

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I was the editor of my high school

newspaper and, uh, got interested in

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journalism pretty early on in my life.

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Um, and uh, the interesting thing about

New York Magazine is I live here in New

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York also, so in addition to being a great

place to work, it also helped me sort of

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enjoy my life in the city more because

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was, you know, early to know a lot of

things about what was going on here.

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So that was.

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Uh, good on both personal

and professional level.

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And as far as Vogue goes, uh, you know,

Vogue is, uh, obviously the world's

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leading fashion magazine, but they also

publish a lot of terrific journalism.

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And I worked more on the story

side of things than on the

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fashion spread side of things.

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uh, no, it's not like a Devil Wears Prada.

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Um, it's, you know, full of a lot of

lovely people and smart people and,

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uh, it was something I really enjoyed.

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Russell: sounds like

a very high pressures.

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Jon Gluck: It could be, yeah.

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Um, deadline pressure, uh, especially

at New York Magazine, which was a

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weekly magazine with a daily website.

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Uh, and, uh, Vogue was a monthly

magazine, then also had a daily website.

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they launched eventually.

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Um, so yeah, they were both, uh, they

could both be high pressure jobs, but,

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um, also really exciting, you know,

with that kind of, uh, you know, uh,

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deadline pressure and the pressure

to produce high level work, um, does

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come a certain amount of anxiety.

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Um, but also, uh, a really high

reward when you publish something

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that strikes a chord or that

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people really benefit from

in one way or another.

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Russell: I imagine as an editor you

would run across a huge variety of

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stories and information, be exposed

to all sorts of various, uh, pieces of

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information and, and people and so forth.

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Jon Gluck: Yeah, for sure.

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I mean, uh, during my career I've

worked on everything from stories about,

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uh, the Exxon Valdez oil spill and,

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uh, abuses in the, Orthodox Jewish

community, um, to stories about

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carts and pizza and, uh, you know,

just enjoying life in New York City.

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So.

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You know, I've run the whole gamut.

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Uh, and frankly, I enjoy both, you know,

uh, some of the more serious stories,

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for lack of a better and some of the

more just fun and enjoyable stories.

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You know, I think

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a lot, there's been a lot of talk

in my business over the last, you

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know, couple of decades about what we

call high low, high-minded material

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and maybe less high-minded material

and that people really enjoy both.

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You know, there was a time where.

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ago when people sort of had the attitude,

uh, publishers had the attitude that

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the two didn't go together.

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Uh, and now it seems like we are,

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we've long since passed that point.

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and

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you know, people are comfortable

reading a story of one sort right

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next to a story of the other

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Russell: great Hilo.

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I like the contrast.

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Yeah, you need to have both of 'em.

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You can't have consistently serious

conversations without having a

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break and letting the mind relax and

approach a different side of things.

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okay.

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Another, well, we'll stay on the low

side for a second here because you

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mentioned, pizza, New York or Chicago.

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Jon Gluck: Ah,

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Russell: Ah,

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Jon Gluck: wow.

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Uh, I'm gonna say, uh, New York for

traditional and Chicago for Deep Dish.

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Russell: dish.

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I'll accept that.

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I'm from Chicago.

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Jon Gluck: I lived there

for four years, so I,

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Russell: great.

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Jon Gluck: would hardly call

myself a connoisseur, but I am,

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uh, not unknowledgeable either.

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Russell: you use the phrasing, you

are a, you are a cancer patient.

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I found that interesting.

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It almost sounded like,

alcoholics Anonymous.

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as far as it's a continuous thing.

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It's not something, and I know

it's a completely different.

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approach.

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but tell us why you use that phrase.

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just either from the emotional side,

if that's what it is, or if it's still,

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I imagine you still have scans and

tests on a regular basis, so there's

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some, practical side of it too, can

you expound on that phrase a little

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bit that you're still a cancer patient?

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Jon Gluck: Yeah, that's one of the main,

uh, points of the book actually, is that

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we, there are a group of us, um, who, and

it's a growing group, who are surviving

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longer and longer with cancers that are

not curable, but that are treatable.

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So.

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Just to be clear, because it's

something that people really

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aren't used to hearing about or

knowing and don't know a ton about.

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Um, I'm not talking about people who are

diagnosed with cancer and are cured and

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are therefore considered cancer survivors.

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Um, and I'm not talking about people

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sadly get a cancer diagnosis and

there is no treatment or cure and.

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know, they, um, pass on.

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Unfortunately, um, the group

that I'm in is a middle group.

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sort of been calling US cancer zombies,

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not because we're half dead and half

alive, but because we're half sick and

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half well, um, in that we will never be

cured of our particular form of cancer.

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Um, but it is treatable.

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So.

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In my case, what's that meant?

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What that has meant is on many occasions

now, over the past, uh, 20 plus years,

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I've gone in and out of remission.

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So I get sick, there's a treatment, I do

that treatment, whether it's radiation

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therapy or chemotherapy or Immunotherapy,

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or whatever the case may be.

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then I am.

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Hopefully in remission for a period

of time if the treatment works.

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Some of them have, some of them haven't.

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Um, hopefully I'm in

remission for a long time.

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Uh, in some cases that's been true.

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I've been in remissions

for as long as seven years.

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In other cases, uh, remissions

have been much shorter.

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Uh, and then I get the next

treatment and hopefully that

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puts me into remission and so on.

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Uh, so.

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Uh,

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that's been the pattern and that's why

I refer to myself as a cancer patient

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and not a cancer survivor because I

haven't been cured of my disease and

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I almost certainly never will be.

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Um,

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so yeah, that's the explanation for that.

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Russell: for that

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Um, so incurable is not terminal.

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a lot of times, I think even when I

read your, bio, an incurable bone marrow

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malignancy, I think most people would see

incurable and terminal as, synonymous,

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but that's certainly not the case.

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It's an interesting point.

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Jon Gluck: Yeah, I would say technically

speaking, uh, terminal means there

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are no more treatments, uh, and, uh.

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Nothing more doctors can do other than

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than maybe extend your life

briefly, uh, and certainly,

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administer what they call

palliative care, which is

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Russell: is

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Jon Gluck: making sure you're

free of pain and whatnot.

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Uh, but, uh, yeah, that's

the difference there is that

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is that incurable cancers

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cancers

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can be

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in some cases and not in other cases,

uh, terminal cancers are not treatable.

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Russell: I, I will say this

on a, a more personal level.

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My prayers and thoughts are to you.

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Uh.

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For the tremendous difficulty that

must present to you physically and

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emotionally to go through those kind

of treatments on a recurring basis.

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And, uh, if, if I or my listeners can

extend any good wishes or prayers for

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you in the future, that is certainly

something that would be high on my list.

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No, it, it is just very emotional

for me because of a recent family

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history even, um, to know that you're

struggling, maybe I, let me take those

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thoughts and go with it for a minute.

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Gimme a chance to recover because I,

I'm, I'm really emotional on this point.

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I

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Jon Gluck: Yeah, I understand.

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I mean, one of the interesting things

about the last 20 years is that,

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you know, whenever I talk about

these issues, if it's privately or

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I've written about my story, uh, in

essays and magazines or newspapers, um, I.

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You know, everybody has a cancer story.

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Pretty much.

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You know, people will say to me

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uh, you know, um, thank you for that.

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It, you've helped, you know, articulate

things that I've thought about before and

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it helps me realize I am not

alone going through this.

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Um, or that my

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mother or father or sister

or brother, aunt or uncle,

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uh, partner or spouse is going through it.

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And

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obviously it's very gratifying

to me if I can help in any way.

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Um, and certainly I'd extend the same

wishes right back to you, Russell.

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Whatever you and your family

are going through, I wish you

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obviously the best with it.

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It's, it's not a fun ride.

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Russell: with the understanding that

our, our listeners are generally, Young

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adult, early business age people, they are

interested in self-help, self-improvement,

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information and your life experiences.

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Can you, can you give us a little

more, maybe an outline of the book in

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particular that, by the way, that's coming

up for release in, uh, a week or so?

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Is that correct?

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Jon Gluck: That's right.

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June 10th.

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Yes.

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Russell: June 10th.

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Mark your calendars for that.

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The book will be available.

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for our listeners that are interested in

self-improvement, what can your book bring

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to us obviously the story is compelling,

but actionable advice is a phrase we use

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on the podcast what can our listeners hope

to find from your book in those regards?

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Jon Gluck: That's a great question.

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I mean, I really tried to

do two things with the book.

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One is simply tell my story, um, and

the second is to offer exactly the

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kind of lessons, if you want to call

it that, life lessons or perspective

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that you're talking about and that you

and your listeners are interested in.

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So I'll share a couple

thoughts about that.

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One is,

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uh, I did quite a bit of research

on the subject of uncertainty

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and coping with uncertainty and.

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Uh, one of the people I spoke to

is a woman named Kate Sweeney, who

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is, is a sociology professor in the

University of California system,

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and she has made a specialty

of studying this subject.

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Um, and she has found some

tremendously interesting things

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over the years in her research.

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Um, one of them simply put is

that uncertainty is super hard

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to deal with, uh, whether it's

a serious medical diagnosis or.

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Even smaller instances,

uh, of uncertainty.

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It's just not something humans

are great at dealing with.

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So she, uh, did,

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done studies with people

waiting for the results of

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biopsies or waiting for the results

of a bar exam, let's and she's found

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that people hate uncertainty so much

that they'd rather get the bad news.

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Um, then continue to have to wait.

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Um, so in one study she talks about,

uh, people were told they were split

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into two groups and told they may or may

not receive a small electrical shock.

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And the pe and some,

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a

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surprising number of people, I don't

recall the exact figure, um, would tell

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the researchers, just give me the shock.

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I just want it over with.

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The waiting is, is driving me crazy.

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Um.

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So I thought that was fascinating.

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Um, and a real statement about how

difficult it is to cope with uncertainty.

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Um, now she and other researchers

who study this subject, they

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have a lot of ways to help.

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one is simply distracting yourself.

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Um, you know, even if that's a

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distraction, like

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a TV show or reading a book.

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Um, another is trying to find activities

that get you into, you know, what?

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been popularly called the, recently,

you know, the flow state or in the zone

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where for a prolonged period of time,

your mind is so thoroughly occupied

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with what you're doing, that it helps

crowd out the thoughts and worries and

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anxieties that otherwise, you know,

creep into all of our, all of our heads.

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Whether, as I say, it's something

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day-to-day problem or

a very serious problem.

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Um, that can be anything.

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It can be for some people it's baking

or knitting or meditation or yoga.

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Uh, for me it happens to be fly fishing.

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I like to fish.

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So,

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um, anytime you can engage in an activity

like that, it can def, definitely help

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you cope with anxieties or uncertainties.

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Um, another thing I had

learned from her that was super

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interesting was people say to her.

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Uh, you know, you're an

expert in this subject.

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How do you cope with uncertainty?

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And she, you know, often I guess,

laughs and says to them not

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very well because none of us do.

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Um, but she also pointed out that

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just knowing that it's a struggle

for everyone, it can be helpful

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in the sense that you realize, you

know, it's normal to struggle with

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uncertainty and, and you're not alone.

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Russell: Um, you mentioned fly

fishing, which I enjoy as well.

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I'm far from an expert at it, but fishing

and fly fishing particularly seemed

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to be very, uh, meditative and, and.

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Bring you into the moment.

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Do all the, those to me kind of fall

into the concept of mindfulness.

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Are you, do you practice mindfulness?

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Is it something that's part of your

recovery or part of your approach

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to dealing with the uncertainty?

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Jon Gluck: It is, uh,

I'm a terrible meditator.

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I guess I would describe my, uh,

meditation skills, uh, in the same way you

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just described your fly fishing skills.

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You know, I wouldn't say

I'm very good at it, but I.

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enjoy it and do my best.

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Um, and another thing that's

interesting about a serious diagnosis,

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and I'm hardly alone this way, is

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changes your perspective in a

lot of ways, and I think almost

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naturally makes you more mindful.

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So, you know, if you want to go back, uh,

to your previous question about, you know,

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lessons that all this has taught

me, or, uh, that could be of benefit

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to anyone, whether they're going

through a diagnosis like this or not.

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Um.

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You know, there are a number of them.

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One is, you know, you become very

aware, uh, as you might imagine,

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that life is short, you know,

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Um, and that it's important to take

advantage of whatever time you have here.

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Um, and that's true for

all of us, whether we're.

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Hyper aware of our mortality

as I am in my case or not.

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Um, so for me, that's made me

more present at all times and

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more mindful at all times, um,

just simply by going through it.

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Um, it's also, uh, made me aware of

how important it is to do something.

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Now if you're interested in doing it.

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so

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you want to travel to Sri

Lanka, if you want to take up.

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Bocce, you know, it

doesn't matter what it is.

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Um, my advice is do it now because none

of us knows how long we're gonna have.

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If you wanna call a friend for that matter

or you're thinking about somebody, um,

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I tend to really be committed to just

doing those things now, you know, more or

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less the minute I think of them or, you

know, if I'm busy at that moment, I'll

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jot down a note to make sure I do do it.

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: 00:16:50

Um, and that's brought

me a lot of pleasure.

316

: 00:16:52

I, I hesitate to give cancer credit for

317

: 00:16:55

good, but.

318

: 00:16:56

I suppose it's helped me in that way.

319

: 00:16:58

Um, I'm also more expressive, I guess

you could say, um, without going

320

: 00:17:05

overboard, at least I hope, uh, not.

321

: 00:17:07

Um, you know, I try and

322

: 00:17:09

my feelings with my friends and my

family about whatever it is, you know.

323

: 00:17:12

Um, tell 'em I love 'em.

324

: 00:17:14

Tell 'em I'm upset.

325

: 00:17:15

Tell 'em,

326

: 00:17:16

uh, you know,

327

: 00:17:18

I'm thinking about them

328

: 00:17:19

again.

329

: 00:17:20

Uh,

330

: 00:17:21

a diagnosis like this makes you aware

that if you don't do something now.

331

: 00:17:25

Who knows if you'll ever get the chance.

332

: 00:17:27

Um, and that is, I guess, uh,

one of the silver linings.

333

: 00:17:32

Russell: The do it now concept of, you

know, it obviously in your situation,

334

: 00:17:38

it's a much more, amplified, than it

might be for us on a day-to-day basis.

335

: 00:17:45

But to find that bocce tournament

in Sri Lanka, as you say,

336

: 00:17:49

combine several things there.

337

: 00:17:51

sometimes it's a risk, sometimes

it's, just Forgetting the motivation

338

: 00:17:55

part of it and just doing it.

339

: 00:17:56

very interesting point.

340

: 00:17:58

in expressing those emotions or

connections, whether good or bad,

341

: 00:18:01

with family members and friends, you

know, want to express your love, but

342

: 00:18:05

there's times as well where you need to

express a frustration or a disagreement.

343

: 00:18:10

I think that's a great point.

344

: 00:18:12

Jon Gluck: Yeah.

345

: 00:18:12

And it's,

346

: 00:18:13

Russell: it's, go ahead.

347

: 00:18:15

Jon Gluck: it's, uh, you know, it's,

as I say, there've been many lessons

348

: 00:18:18

that, uh, have come from this, as we're

349

: 00:18:22

as I'm thinking about this now that

you asked the question too, I mean,

350

: 00:18:25

another one that I suspect may

have come up on your discussions

351

: 00:18:29

before as well is this idea of,

352

: 00:18:32

you know, um, you're stronger

than you think you are.

353

: 00:18:37

and you can survive more

than you think you can.

354

: 00:18:39

you had told me at the outset of

all this what I would be undergoing

355

: 00:18:43

in the next 20 plus years.

356

: 00:18:45

um, first of all, I didn't think

I was gonna live 20 plus years.

357

: 00:18:47

Um, you know, I was initially

told I might live as,

358

: 00:18:50

uh, little as a year and

a half from my diagnosis.

359

: 00:18:54

So,

360

: 00:18:55

um, if you had told me that I'd have

to go through all the things I've gone

361

: 00:18:59

through, I was, I'm certain I would've

said, well, I can't possibly do that.

362

: 00:19:04

And yet here I am and I

did and I've survived it.

363

: 00:19:07

I think, you know,

364

: 00:19:09

a lot of the limits we place on ourselves

or the doubts we express to ourselves are

365

: 00:19:15

self-imposed, and some of them aren't.

366

: 00:19:18

You know, I don't want to create false

hope and I don't believe in the idea

367

: 00:19:22

that, well, if you just maintain a

positive attitude, you can do anything.

368

: 00:19:26

Um, there are some things we can't

do, and there are some times in

369

: 00:19:30

certainly the world of cancer where

there's not gonna be a happy outcome.

370

: 00:19:35

Um, I don't want to deny those realities,

but at the same time, I have learned

371

: 00:19:40

some valuable lessons about, um,

opening yourself up to the possibility

372

: 00:19:45

anyway, that, um, there might be a

more positive outcome than you think.

373

: 00:19:48

I.

374

: 00:19:50

Russell: Oftentimes we hear,

especially in some of the more hyped

375

: 00:19:53

self-help and self-improvement, you

know, you can, you can accomplish

376

: 00:19:56

anything you want to accomplish.

377

: 00:19:57

We tell our children and

I I taught school for.

378

: 00:20:02

10, 15 years.

379

: 00:20:03

you know, we want to encourage

the students that you can do

380

: 00:20:06

this if you try hard enough.

381

: 00:20:07

And in the case of illness and

physical limitations, there are

382

: 00:20:12

things that you just can't do.

383

: 00:20:14

You know, not everybody we wanna tell our

kids you could grow up to be president.

384

: 00:20:19

And yeah, it might be possible, but,

you know, there are limitations there.

385

: 00:20:23

It's an interesting point to bring out.

386

: 00:20:25

you don't wanna tell a

child, you can't do that.

387

: 00:20:27

So where do you, in some of your

conversations, situations, do you

388

: 00:20:32

find a way to balance that, to

encourage, but still challenge.

389

: 00:20:39

Jon Gluck: For me, it's

about, uh, you know, being,

390

: 00:20:43

Optimistically realistic.

391

: 00:20:45

I'm going to coin a new term.

392

: 00:20:46

Um, so, you know, uh, and one of the

things about a diagnosis like this

393

: 00:20:53

and living with cancer so long that

you learn is, is optimistic realism.

394

: 00:20:58

Um, so what I mean by that is.

395

: 00:21:01

You know, every time I come out of

remission or I get bad news about my

396

: 00:21:04

scans and I get checked up every three

months or six months, um, when that

397

: 00:21:10

happens, there's a moment, sometimes an

hour, sometimes a day, sometimes a week,

398

: 00:21:14

um, or more when I am super upset and

feeling really discouraged and not

399

: 00:21:21

particularly optimistic or hopeful.

400

: 00:21:23

Um, and I think that's fine.

401

: 00:21:25

You know, sometimes you just need to allow

yourself to feel that way for a while.

402

: 00:21:29

Um, none of us are superhuman.

403

: 00:21:32

Even if we could, you know, uh, erase

those feelings immediately, probably

404

: 00:21:37

wouldn't be that healthy to do so.

405

: 00:21:39

Um, but at the same time, without

exception, so far anyway, um, after some

406

: 00:21:47

amount of time passes and it varies, um.

407

: 00:21:51

I realize, okay, it's time to get on

with it now and do what I need to do

408

: 00:21:55

treatment-wise to get better again.

409

: 00:21:57

Um,

410

: 00:21:58

and at that point,

411

: 00:22:01

this is how I see it anyway.

412

: 00:22:03

There's no sense in not being optimistic,

you know, again, I don't necessarily

413

: 00:22:08

believe that optimism or good out,

414

: 00:22:10

attitude is gonna change my outcome,

but what I 100% believe is it's

415

: 00:22:15

gonna change my day-to-day existence.

416

: 00:22:17

Um, and it's gonna make me a lot happier

and allow me to enjoy my life more

417

: 00:22:22

than walking around expecting

that the sky is gonna fall.

418

: 00:22:26

Um,

419

: 00:22:28

am I

420

: 00:22:29

perfect at that?

421

: 00:22:30

Mm-hmm.

422

: 00:22:30

Absolutely not.

423

: 00:22:31

Am I even really good at it?

424

: 00:22:32

Absolutely not.

425

: 00:22:33

But

426

: 00:22:34

do it to whatever extent I possibly can.

427

: 00:22:37

Um, and I find that it's just a

428

: 00:22:40

Just selfishly speaking, a better

way to live, an easier way to live

429

: 00:22:44

than being, you know, miserable and

negative and pessimistic all the time.

430

: 00:22:50

Russell: the important part, I

believe that you alluded to is

431

: 00:22:54

understanding that if you're gonna

get through the difficult part.

432

: 00:22:59

You have to allow yourself to go

through the process you can't skip

433

: 00:23:05

right to acceptance or, you know, just,

okay, you know, we're not gonna try to

434

: 00:23:10

fluff over or whitewash the bad news.

435

: 00:23:13

It's, it is bad news and part of

being mindful and part of being

436

: 00:23:16

present is to dwell on it, but you

do have to realize it and accept it

437

: 00:23:22

and then from there you can move on.

438

: 00:23:24

I.

439

: 00:23:26

And that's difficult, right?

440

: 00:23:29

You have more experience with

that than the rest of us.

441

: 00:23:31

I would imagine, on a fairly recurring

basis, has over the period, has

442

: 00:23:35

that gotten, do you deal with it a

different way as you go through it?

443

: 00:23:39

Is it similar?

444

: 00:23:40

Has it get easier?

445

: 00:23:42

Is it more real each time?

446

: 00:23:44

I don't want to dig into some areas

that are not within our purview, but

447

: 00:23:48

go into whatever depth you'd like to

on that, or we can move on to another

448

: 00:23:51

question if that's not appropriate.

449

: 00:23:53

Jon Gluck: No, uh, I think

it's a great question.

450

: 00:23:55

I'm happy to talk about it.

451

: 00:23:56

Um,

452

: 00:23:57

I am, yes.

453

: 00:23:57

Uh.

454

: 00:23:58

Uh, you know, an expert in the Elizabeth

Kubler-Ross, you know, stages of grief.

455

: 00:24:03

as you suggest, you know, I've gone

through this process many, many times.

456

: 00:24:06

Um, and, uh, let's see, you know, to

answer a number of your questions, uh, it

457

: 00:24:16

get easier in the sense it does

get easier in the sense that

458

: 00:24:21

it's not a lightning bolt out of the blue.

459

: 00:24:24

Anymore the way it was the first

time, the first time I was diagnosed,

460

: 00:24:27

I had no family history of cancer.

461

: 00:24:28

I was 38 years old.

462

: 00:24:30

I had a seven month old daughter.

463

: 00:24:32

My first child.

464

: 00:24:33

My career was going reasonably well.

465

: 00:24:35

I had just moved into a new apartment.

466

: 00:24:37

I was, you know, young and had friends and

467

: 00:24:40

family.

468

: 00:24:41

I was lucky enough to be close

with and enjoy their company.

469

: 00:24:44

I was just living my life and,

you know, bang out of the blue.

470

: 00:24:48

Um, I had some hip pain that seemed to

have come, come from slipping on the ice.

471

: 00:24:54

One day I didn't even fall.

472

: 00:24:56

I just kind of twisted my hip.

473

: 00:24:58

Got it checked out after six or

eight weeks when it didn't go away.

474

: 00:25:02

And

475

: 00:25:03

uh, they took a simple

x-ray, didn't see anything.

476

: 00:25:06

Went on for almost a year.

477

: 00:25:08

And when the year mark came up, I was

like, you know, it doesn't seem right that

478

: 00:25:11

my hip still hurts from a simple twist.

479

: 00:25:14

And went back to the doctor.

480

: 00:25:15

This time they did an MRI and that's

when they found out I was sick.

481

: 00:25:19

type of cancer I have presents as

lesions or tumors on your bones.

482

: 00:25:24

Uh, that start in the bone marrow and

483

: 00:25:27

their way out, so to speak.

484

: 00:25:29

that's what they saw on the MRI.

485

: 00:25:30

So where I'm going with all that is,

you know, that time it was an absolute

486

: 00:25:35

shock and extremely hard to deal with.

487

: 00:25:38

And funny enough that you bring

up the subject because my first

488

: 00:25:42

reaction was almost textbook denial.

489

: 00:25:45

The literal first words out

of my mouth when the doctor

490

: 00:25:49

told me were, no, no, no, no.

491

: 00:25:50

no.

492

: 00:25:51

so that was just flat denial.

493

: 00:25:54

Um, and then over the years, as

I say, um, it has gotten easier

494

: 00:25:58

because it's not so shocking.

495

: 00:26:00

But on the other hand,

it hasn't gotten easier.

496

: 00:26:03

Um, hearing the words, you have

cancer or you have cancer again,

497

: 00:26:07

never is the least bit pleasant.

498

: 00:26:10

Um, and you can't, as you suggest Exactly.

499

: 00:26:15

Circumvent the process.

500

: 00:26:17

Um.

501

: 00:26:18

Every time, even though I know better

now, there is at least a moment of denial.

502

: 00:26:22

You know, every time there's a moment of

anger and so on through the rest of the

503

: 00:26:27

so-called stages of grief, um, I.

504

: 00:26:30

What I guess I have learned, and

maybe I am a little better at, is just

505

: 00:26:34

to accept that that's gonna happen.

506

: 00:26:36

Um, and that working through that

process is gonna take some time

507

: 00:26:40

and not fight that, or not make myself

even more upset by trying to fight it,

508

: 00:26:47

um, or wishing it wasn't gonna happen.

509

: 00:26:51

Um, but just accepting that

that's part of the deal and.

510

: 00:26:56

It also helps to know, having gone

through this many times, that you will

511

: 00:27:00

pass through those stages and you will

move on, um, and hopefully go back to

512

: 00:27:05

your normal life, whatever has triggered

that, you know, grief process in you,

513

: 00:27:12

Um, and that's something also that

I think has been a valuable lesson

514

: 00:27:15

I've learned over the years is

515

: 00:27:17

try and look ahead, um, to the best.

516

: 00:27:21

To the extent you can

and when you're ready.

517

: 00:27:23

a good friend of mine, uh, when

I was first diagnosed after

518

: 00:27:27

expressing his sympathies and,

519

: 00:27:29

uh, whatnot, said, you know, I thought

that was a lovely thing to say because

520

: 00:27:35

it gives you hope for the future.

521

: 00:27:37

Makes you think about, makes you realize

that whatever you're going through.

522

: 00:27:40

It's not gonna last forever.

523

: 00:27:42

Um, and there will be a time where you're

back to your life and having a beer with

524

: 00:27:45

your friends or whatever you enjoy doing,

525

: 00:27:47

Um,

526

: 00:27:48

and to the extent that I can focus on

that, um, I've found that can be helpful.

527

: 00:27:54

Russell: from your point of view, can

you run us through DDA or whatever

528

: 00:27:57

your acronym is for the grieving

process, uh, and just give us a,

529

: 00:28:01

a quick step by step through that.

530

: 00:28:03

Jon Gluck: I

531

: 00:28:03

mean, uh, so I guess it's what?

532

: 00:28:05

Denial, anger, bargaining,

533

: 00:28:08

Russell: depression.

534

: 00:28:09

Jon Gluck: depression and acceptance.

535

: 00:28:11

Russell: is what I

536

: 00:28:12

Jon Gluck: Um, so yeah, I've

been through all of 'em.

537

: 00:28:14

Denial, I talked about already

a little bit, uh, anger.

538

: 00:28:17

I've certainly been angry.

539

: 00:28:19

Uh, angry.

540

: 00:28:21

At the universe, but also, you know,

sort of consciously angry at, you

541

: 00:28:25

know, how could this happen to me and

it's not fair, that sort of thing.

542

: 00:28:28

Russell: of

543

: 00:28:29

Jon Gluck: Um, but I've also been

inadvertently angry with people

544

: 00:28:33

around me and treated people badly,

whether that's my wife or friends

545

: 00:28:37

or coworkers, you know, um, anytime

you're under that much stress and,

546

: 00:28:43

uh,

547

: 00:28:45

something is, uh.

548

: 00:28:48

Rightly bothering you that much.

549

: 00:28:50

You know, I've, one thing I've learned

is, uh, you know, it can work its way

550

: 00:28:54

out in strange subconscious ways and

551

: 00:28:56

its way to the surface in ways

that I don't feel great about.

552

: 00:28:59

And I,

553

: 00:29:00

uh, am sorry for, I don't blame

myself exactly, because it

554

: 00:29:03

happens and I've tried to be,

555

: 00:29:05

you know, apologetic to

people when it does happen.

556

: 00:29:07

But that's another interesting thing

I've noticed that anger, the anger

557

: 00:29:10

phase of it doesn't, isn't always

something you're fully aware of and can

558

: 00:29:15

kind of,

559

: 00:29:15

As I say, work its way to the

surface, um, without you really

560

: 00:29:20

recognizing it, at least at first.

561

: 00:29:21

I've definitely been a bargainer.

562

: 00:29:23

Um, I don't happen to be a religious

person, so I don't do a ton of

563

: 00:29:28

praying per se, although, you

know the expression, there

564

: 00:29:31

are no atheists and a foxhole.

565

: 00:29:33

Um, I have occasionally turned to

religion when things are particularly

566

: 00:29:37

bad, um, and done some praying of my own.

567

: 00:29:39

But one of the other interesting

things that's happened to me is.

568

: 00:29:43

I've become very superstitious with

respect to cancer and cancer only.

569

: 00:29:49

Um, my friends and family would laugh

at this because I'm usually not at all

570

: 00:29:53

a superstitious person and I sort of

571

: 00:29:56

people about being superstitious, but

when it comes to my diagnosis and uh,

572

: 00:30:01

anything to do with it, I've become.

573

: 00:30:05

Highly superstitious.

574

: 00:30:06

I have certain rituals I

do before and after tests.

575

: 00:30:10

You know, I'm sure they don't

work one way or the other,

576

: 00:30:12

but they make me feel better.

577

: 00:30:13

So I do 'em anyway.

578

: 00:30:15

Um, I, let's see, that's

bargaining, uh, depression.

579

: 00:30:19

I've certainly been through.

580

: 00:30:21

Um, I'm not particularly inclined.

581

: 00:30:24

Fortunately though I

realize I'm lucky this way

582

: 00:30:27

to serious bouts of depression,

but I've certainly had.

583

: 00:30:31

Uh, you know, moments or weeks or months

of not feeling myself feeling down after a

584

: 00:30:37

diagnosis or a re diagnosis, um, I

don't know how anybody could not be.

585

: 00:30:43

and acceptance, I guess, you know,

is something I'm still working

586

: 00:30:47

on and do my best, uh, with.

587

: 00:30:50

I think to the extent I have accepted my

diagnosis and re diagnoses over the years,

588

: 00:30:56

um, it's been more of a process of.

589

: 00:31:02

Uh, not accepting it as in, oh,

it's all fine and everything will be

590

: 00:31:06

okay, but accepting that we all deal

with problems, um, and this happens

591

: 00:31:14

to be my particular, uh, you know,

cross to bear, but everybody has one.

592

: 00:31:20

Um, and just realizing, going

back to that concept that,

593

: 00:31:24

you know, you're not alone and.

594

: 00:31:27

You know, the

595

: 00:31:28

Buddhists talk about life is suffering,

not in the sense that, you know, your life

596

: 00:31:31

is miserable, but that, uh, difficulty

will come into everybody's life.

597

: 00:31:36

Um, and thinking about it that way

I think has helped me, I guess with

598

: 00:31:41

the acceptance phase of things that,

599

: 00:31:44

um, this is my, you know, it is what it

is and this is what I have to deal with.

600

: 00:31:49

Lots of people have to deal with lots

of different things, some of 'em, a lot

601

: 00:31:52

worse, uh, than what I have to deal with.

602

: 00:31:54

And that.

603

: 00:31:55

Perspective can sometimes help

with the acceptance phase.

604

: 00:32:00

Russell: I think the studies tell us

that they will probably experience each

605

: 00:32:03

of these things in varying degrees and

in varying orders, and some of them

606

: 00:32:09

might last for, I've read anecdotal.

607

: 00:32:13

Information That said, some of

these phases may last just a

608

: 00:32:15

few minutes and pass, or may,

you may not even recognize that.

609

: 00:32:22

so if that's the case, do you

really go through it or not?

610

: 00:32:24

It doesn't really matter.

611

: 00:32:25

but for the listeners, these are

not set in stone, but it, might be

612

: 00:32:28

milestones or, bookmarks to look

for in yourself and in other people.

613

: 00:32:35

I find you're, about

superstitious activities.

614

: 00:32:39

Fascinating.

615

: 00:32:40

What is it?

616

: 00:32:41

Can you tell me this in your own mind?

617

: 00:32:44

Intellectually by your own admission that

these things don't make a difference.

618

: 00:32:48

But still we do them and everybody does.

619

: 00:32:51

I don't think we realize it, but you

know, we start the car in a certain

620

: 00:32:54

order because if I, if I have my

left foot in the right spot, the car

621

: 00:32:58

will start or whatever it might be.

622

: 00:33:00

I find that amazing that we know it

doesn't matter, but we do it anyway.

623

: 00:33:04

What's up with that?

624

: 00:33:06

Jon Gluck: Yeah, my wife and daughter

and some other folks I know like to,

625

: 00:33:09

uh, touch the airplane when they're

walking on board, you know, some.

626

: 00:33:13

How that makes that, you know, makes

it impossible for anything to go wrong.

627

: 00:33:17

Um, you know, I think it,

628

: 00:33:19

it goes to this idea that has inspired

all religion and, and, uh, that's,

629

: 00:33:27

that I think we wanna believe that

there's a higher power, you know?

630

: 00:33:31

Um, and, uh, that there's hope

even when things seem hopeless.

631

: 00:33:38

Um, you know, I, I talk about

it in the book, you know, hope

632

: 00:33:41

sort of medicine for the

soul in the sense that,

633

: 00:33:44

you know, hope is to the mind

what chemotherapy or radiation or

634

: 00:33:49

immunotherapy are for the body.

635

: 00:33:50

You know, they're, they're just

as val, it's just as valuable.

636

: 00:33:53

Um, and you know, there's

a reason, you know, uh.

637

: 00:33:59

There's that phrase about, you know, the

sign on the way into, you know, hell says,

638

: 00:34:04

you know, abandon hope all you enter here.

639

: 00:34:06

Um, because hope is absolutely

precious and critical to human

640

: 00:34:11

happiness and human existence.

641

: 00:34:13

And

642

: 00:34:14

at times when we're feeling hopeless about

our own circumstances and that nothing can

643

: 00:34:20

help, nothing in our own power can help.

644

: 00:34:23

we can do, nothing our friends can do.

645

: 00:34:25

Maybe not even something doctors can do.

646

: 00:34:28

Um.

647

: 00:34:29

I think rather than run out of hope,

uh, we look for a new source of hope.

648

: 00:34:33

Um, and for many people that's religion.

649

: 00:34:37

For many people it's superstition.

650

: 00:34:38

For many people, it's both.

651

: 00:34:39

Um, it sort of doesn't matter.

652

: 00:34:42

At that point, you'll grasp onto anything

that allows you that little spark of

653

: 00:34:47

hope that makes us feel a little happier,

more comfortable, um, less, uh, hopeless.

654

: 00:34:56

Russell: Hope is not wish

things turn out correctly.

655

: 00:35:01

It, it's not, uh, you know,

I hope I win the lottery.

656

: 00:35:06

Hope is a knowledge that.

657

: 00:35:11

is going to come to pass.

658

: 00:35:12

That's, that's not a great

definition of it, but what is hope?

659

: 00:35:16

If you were to, to try to define

it and put it into concrete

660

: 00:35:18

terms, how would you define hope?

661

: 00:35:21

Jon Gluck: I guess I'd go back to

what I was talking about a little

662

: 00:35:24

bit earlier about, you know, just

allowing yourself the possibility,

663

: 00:35:29

um, not hitting yourself, not

664

: 00:35:33

forcing yourself to believe

in a positive outcome.

665

: 00:35:37

I.

666

: 00:35:37

But allowing yourself the possibility

to believe the PO in the possibility

667

: 00:35:41

that something good might happen, even

when there's evidence that it might not.

668

: 00:35:46

Um, maybe that's my

best working definition.

669

: 00:35:49

Russell: But you said you're

not a religious person, but then

670

: 00:35:52

you talk about a higher power.

671

: 00:35:54

Um.

672

: 00:35:55

And frequently on this show also comes

up the concept of comparing spirituality,

673

: 00:36:01

which might be my own approach to life,

and believing that there is some higher

674

: 00:36:06

power, whatever it might be, versus

religion, uh, is an implementation,

675

: 00:36:13

but a different aspect, I think, and

really more than in the, the way that

676

: 00:36:20

I use the terms more different than the

average person wants to think it is.

677

: 00:36:25

What are your, you're not religious.

678

: 00:36:28

Are you spiritual?

679

: 00:36:28

Do you have, uh, beliefs in higher power?

680

: 00:36:31

Does that help you through the

processes and, uh, daily life?

681

: 00:36:35

Jon Gluck: Yeah, I mean, uh, the

first thing that comes to mind is

682

: 00:36:37

something that happened actually

on the day I was diagnosed.

683

: 00:36:41

Um, and that was November 4th, 2003.

684

: 00:36:47

Um, you know, uh, almost anybody who's

received a cancer diagnosis will tell

685

: 00:36:51

you they know their diagnosis date.

686

: 00:36:53

You know it almost as well

as they know their birthday.

687

: 00:36:55

If not the immediate reaction was

pure shock and as I said, denial.

688

: 00:37:01

And,

689

: 00:37:02

um, then it took me a while to work

up the nerve to talk to some of

690

: 00:37:06

the people I needed to talk to and

tell the people I needed to tell.

691

: 00:37:09

Uh, and by the time that evening

rolled around, um, I was at least

692

: 00:37:15

an ounce more stable and not in

total shock and total denial.

693

: 00:37:19

And it begun to, you know, think

ahead a little bit about what might

694

: 00:37:24

happen, what I could do, what was in

my control, what wasn't in my control.

695

: 00:37:30

Um, and one of the thoughts I

remember having was, I guess you

696

: 00:37:34

could say a quite spiritual thought

though, not a religious thought.

697

: 00:37:37

Um, which was, I remember

thinking, you know, okay.

698

: 00:37:41

And these terms, I was just sort

of making up as I went along.

699

: 00:37:44

I remember thinking, uh, that

there's a death force, um.

700

: 00:37:49

And that that force was sort of

closer to me than it had ever been.

701

: 00:37:53

Um, and more powerful in my,

a more powerful presence in

702

: 00:37:58

my life than it had ever Been,

703

: 00:38:00

You know, most of us.

704

: 00:38:00

And why not, you know, go through life,

not, you know, knowing rationally that,

705

: 00:38:05

you know, we're gonna die someday,

but almost never thinking about it.

706

: 00:38:08

Uh, unless we're forced to,

707

: 00:38:10

obviously in this case I had been forced

to, you know, rather dramatically.

708

: 00:38:14

Um, so I remember thinking like, okay,

I feel the presence of this force

709

: 00:38:19

trying to take me down, so to speak.

710

: 00:38:22

Um, but then my very next thought

was, there's obviously also a

711

: 00:38:26

life force and there's a very

powerful human instinct to survive.

712

: 00:38:31

Um.

713

: 00:38:32

That's mu far beyond our

understanding at this point.

714

: 00:38:36

Even with all we do know about

the mind and the body, uh,

715

: 00:38:39

medically and psychologically.

716

: 00:38:41

Um,

717

: 00:38:42

and that that force, that life

force was, you know, just as

718

: 00:38:46

powerful as the death force.

719

: 00:38:48

And they were sort of constantly

720

: 00:38:50

battling it out.

721

: 00:38:51

Um, and not to get too Star Wars about

it, but, uh, you know, the, the way I

722

: 00:38:57

came out that day was I needed

to believe in the life force.

723

: 00:39:00

Um.

724

: 00:39:01

Uh, and you know, I would say

that's probably the sort of

725

: 00:39:06

spirituality that, that I

726

: 00:39:08

find myself,

727

: 00:39:09

you know, uh, having.

728

: 00:39:12

Russell: mentioned a friend that

said, we're gonna have a beer

729

: 00:39:14

together after this is over.

730

: 00:39:16

Um, what is in a, in a practical way,

from my point of view, uh, if I were

731

: 00:39:23

an acquaintance of yours and you were

sharing with me news of your diagnosis,

732

: 00:39:28

what is the best way for me to validate

and to support someone is receiving.

733

: 00:39:35

News like you've personally and

you share it with someone, how

734

: 00:39:40

can I best support that person?

735

: 00:39:42

Is there a certain, can

I say certain things?

736

: 00:39:45

Should I avoid certain things?

737

: 00:39:46

Or is it just something you have

to take on a case by case basis?

738

: 00:39:51

Jon Gluck: No, I think, uh, there

are definitely things dos and

739

: 00:39:54

don't there, so to speak, you know?

740

: 00:39:56

I've had many of them in my life, uh,

both when I was first diagnosed and since,

741

: 00:40:01

I mean, uh, somebody I knew said to me,

um, when I was first diagnosed, oh, I

742

: 00:40:07

understand what you're going through.

743

: 00:40:09

I had a skin cancer scare, uh, once,

and it turned out it was benign.

744

: 00:40:13

That was not helpful, um, because

you know, it's apples and oranges.

745

: 00:40:18

Uh, and I've realized people

are well intentioned and

746

: 00:40:21

also people get nervous when.

747

: 00:40:23

They hear about a cancer

diagnosis, it can be scary.

748

: 00:40:26

And, you know, we all, when we're

nervous sometimes blurt out things that

749

: 00:40:29

we didn't intend.

750

: 00:40:30

Um, so I, you know, I try not to

be too harsh or critical of people

751

: 00:40:35

who, you know, say or do the quote

unquote wrong thing, but, I didn't

752

: 00:40:39

find that particularly helpful.

753

: 00:40:40

Um, on the other hand, um,

whenever somebody simply says to

754

: 00:40:44

me, I mean, it's easy, like so

many things of this sort, right?

755

: 00:40:47

It's.

756

: 00:40:48

It's,

757

: 00:40:48

easier than you think.

758

: 00:40:49

You just get in your own way.

759

: 00:40:50

Um, and when somebody just simply

expresses their sympathy, um,

760

: 00:40:57

gosh, I'm so sorry to hear that.

761

: 00:40:59

Um, or that sucks, I can't

imagine what you're going through,

762

: 00:41:03

but that sounds really hard.

763

: 00:41:05

All of those are extremely helpful.

764

: 00:41:07

So just a basic expression of sympathy.

765

: 00:41:10

Um, and also, you know, an offer to

help, even though it may not be needed,

766

: 00:41:15

it may not even be entirely practical.

767

: 00:41:18

You know, I've had friends who've

768

: 00:41:19

live halfway around the world

and have said, you know.

769

: 00:41:22

and if there's anything I can

do to help, please let me know.

770

: 00:41:24

Um.

771

: 00:41:25

That's helpful also because in

its own way, it's an expression

772

: 00:41:29

of sympathy or support, I guess,

773

: 00:41:31

and knowing that

774

: 00:41:33

people sympathize and understand,

and knowing that they're

775

: 00:41:38

ready, willing, and able to

support you, or even if they can't

776

: 00:41:41

practically support you, that

they're emotionally supporting you.

777

: 00:41:44

Um, those things are very, very

valuable and always greatly appreciated.

778

: 00:41:50

Russell: most of us are familiar with, uh.

779

: 00:41:53

Stephen Curry's book, the Seven

Habits of Highly Successful People.

780

: 00:41:57

I'm not gonna ask you to go for seven,

but, and I'm not gonna ask you to

781

: 00:42:01

pull anything from that book, but

from your personal life, you have a

782

: 00:42:05

handful, maybe two or three habits

that you do on a daily basis, uh,

783

: 00:42:10

that you would strongly encourage our

listeners to put into regular practice?

784

: 00:42:15

Uh, so maybe a, a list there or anything

off the top of your head if you have them.

785

: 00:42:19

And then some final thoughts to close us

out and, and we'll sign off after that.

786

: 00:42:24

Jon Gluck: as far as your question

about the book, um, uh, if.

787

: 00:42:29

This, if you're listening to

this before June 10th, uh, you

788

: 00:42:32

can still pre-order the book.

789

: 00:42:34

It's available on all the

major online retailers and, uh,

790

: 00:42:39

uh, for pre-order, um, Amazon

and others, uh, bookshop.org

791

: 00:42:44

if you prefer that.

792

: 00:42:45

Um, and leaving behind that shameless,

uh, plug for the book, uh, and

793

: 00:42:53

turning to far more serious matters.

794

: 00:42:55

what advice do I have or what

lessons, what do I suggest people

795

: 00:43:00

practice in their own lives?

796

: 00:43:01

Uh, you know, I guess for me,

one of the things I've realized

797

: 00:43:05

in thinking about this a great

deal over the years is, you know,

798

: 00:43:10

people, uh, talk about

the Serenity Prayer.

799

: 00:43:14

Um, you know, gimme the strength to,

uh, change the things I can change

800

: 00:43:18

and accept the things I can't.

801

: 00:43:20

That's paraphrasing, uh, obviously, but

802

: 00:43:23

that's the essence of it,

803

: 00:43:24

Um, I've said to people, I, you know, I

don't know if that's the secret to human

804

: 00:43:29

happiness, but it's as close as I've come.

805

: 00:43:32

Um, and I, I think there's just

a great deal of wisdom in that.

806

: 00:43:36

So, you know, if you're facing a

difficulty, uh, you know, do your

807

: 00:43:40

best to address it, you know, um,

808

: 00:43:45

particularly when it comes to

cancer and cancer diagnosis.

809

: 00:43:48

Get your regular screenings if something

doesn't feel right or you have a

810

: 00:43:52

suspicion that something is.

811

: 00:43:54

Going on too long, or as I said with my

hip, it was just, you know, almost a year.

812

: 00:43:59

And I had only just done

this minor thing to it

813

: 00:44:02

Um, and thank goodness I finally

went back to the doctor and said,

814

: 00:44:05

you know, this doesn't seem right.

815

: 00:44:07

Highly advise you to do that.

816

: 00:44:08

You know, if,

817

: 00:44:09

if things don't add up, you

know, go see your doctor.

818

: 00:44:13

get your regular screenings, early

detection is still the best way to,

819

: 00:44:17

uh, prevent cancers from becoming

serious or, or worse fatal.

820

: 00:44:22

Um.

821

: 00:44:23

So, yeah, do control the

things you can control.

822

: 00:44:26

Um, and then on the other side of

that coin, um, accept the things

823

: 00:44:31

you can't, you know, we talked

some about this already, but, um,

824

: 00:44:35

try and make peace with the

things that you can't, uh,

825

: 00:44:39

problems that you can't wrestle to

the ground with your own bare hands

826

: 00:44:42

or with the help of friends, family,

loved ones, experts, whatever it is.

827

: 00:44:46

Um,

828

: 00:44:47

because fighting those things or.

829

: 00:44:50

Trying to wish them away or

pretend they're not happening,

830

: 00:44:53

in my experience anyway,

only makes them worse.

831

: 00:44:55

Um,

832

: 00:44:56

so that would be my all

seven habits boiled into one.

833

: 00:44:59

Russell: thank you Jonathan,

for being with us today.

834

: 00:45:01

Listeners, thank you for joining

us for this, uh, episode.

835

: 00:45:04

Hope you'll be back next week.

836

: 00:45:06

Uh, today's guest was Jonathan Gluck,

and as he mentioned, if you're.

837

: 00:45:11

Uh, listening before you can

pre-order his book or after June

838

: 00:45:14

10th and exercise in uncertainty.

839

: 00:45:19

Alright, that's it for today.

840

: 00:45:20

Uh, we'll close here and

hope to see you next week.

841

: 00:45:23

Thank you very much, listeners.